00:00.00
julieewald
There you go and just really quickly I’ll do the usual. Thank you for being here and you know then we’ll go ahead I’ll do the introduction I’ll give you a chance to add anything and then we’ll dig into the questions all right Hello Everyone you are here for all about awesomeness brought to you by and impressive solutions.

00:11.37
Mark Schaefer
Um, sure. So.

00:19.20
julieewald
And today I’m here with the brilliant Markchafer hi Mark.

00:11.34
julieewald
I am just thrilled to have you here. So thank you so much for joining me for those of you who don’t note Mark Mark Shafffer is an acclaimed marketing consultant keynote speaker podcaster and university educator he is the author of 10 books. Ah that I am big fans of.

00:22.17
Mark Schaefer
Hey Julie thanks so much for having me in the early editions of your show.

00:28.69
julieewald
Ah, which include known marketing rebellion and cumulative advantage. His books are used as text at more than 70 universities can be found at more than 700 libraries and have been translated into 15 languages that’s pretty impressive Mark.

01:02.59
Mark Schaefer
You know it it is I know I mean the thing that is impressive is that like I had no idea this would ever happen to me like whenever you say oh it’s being used at these universities I’m thinking that is just so cool because who would have ever thunk it. But it’s worked out.

01:02.89
julieewald
And no, that’s absolutely fantastic. Um, and so you have a new book out ah belonging to the brand and it’s a little bit different than the other books out there and really offers a fresh take on the concept of Brand communities. So what makes this book so distinctive.

01:38.89
Mark Schaefer
Well thank you so much for having me first of all and thank you for saying so many kind words about about my books that that means a lot. Um well community isn’t a new idea. Um, but it’s it’s been around forever literally. But what’s new about. Perspective I have in my book is that most business communities fail because the companies say we want to sell stuff to people and people usually don’t want to gather if ah, the company’s just trying to make their quarterly sales numbers. 70% of the of the brand communities that actually make it are devoted to customer self-service. You’ve got a tech problem go to our community and people will help you there which is fine. That’s useful, but. I think the overwhelming opportunity here is that we’re overlooking the brand marketing aspects of community brand marketing is about building this expectation this emotion this meaning between what you do and your customers. Or your audience or hopefully even potential customers and the emotion the connection that happens in community is the ultimate. It’s the ultimate goal in in marketing and Julie this is almost completely overlooked by business today.

03:12.14
Mark Schaefer
And it’s an opportunity that’s staring us right in the face in the book I talk about 3 mega trends that are coming together that I think well I more than think I know that it it points to community as a potential.

03:20.83
julieewald
And you just touched on ah quite a few things that I want to follow up on. Um I think I’m going take it back a little bit for those who are are are newbies to some of this stuff and there might be like wait a minute brand community. How would you define it.

03:29.70
Mark Schaefer
Ah, marketing opportunity right now I think the time is now to really revisit this as as an opportunity for brand marketing.

03:56.28
Mark Schaefer
Okay, great. Great question because a lot of people do get confused in that area. Many people I talk ah you know they’ll say oh well we have this community but it’s really like a mailing list or a group of customers or an audience. So. You know I’ve developed an audience over the years I’ve I’ve blogged since every week since 2009 I’ve had a podcast we’re now in our eleventh season never missed an episode I have ah an amazing audience and but it’s it’s one way. Ah, it’s it’s it’s really almost a cult of personality if I go away the audience goes away if the content isn’t there and I don’t really know these people there’s tens of thousands of people all over the world that consume my content and they’ve been very kind to me. Sometimes they’ll pop out of nowhere and say I want to hire you for something that’s great now. What defines community what makes it different. There are 3 aspects number one that there’s actual like communion like people know each other. They become friends and they and they and they connect so that’s 1 thing to think about if you say well I’ve got a you know I’ve got a community and I was talking to a guy today actually and he was just like insisting. He kept saying my community my community.

05:24.49
Mark Schaefer
And it’s really used talking about like the people that listen to his podcast I said but they don’t know each other they don’t know each other that’s it’s it’s it’s like a neighborhood people have to know each other number 2 community comes together for a purpose. That it’s it’s an intersection between what drives a company and what drives their customers. So an example that I use. It’s that’s easy to understand because it’s so famous is Patagonia this is a brand that stands for. Stewardship of our our earth of nature of responsible outdoor recreation and it’s just no question. That’s what they stand for well, there’s a lot of other people that stand for that as well and they can be a bigger company a more impactful company by involving their customers. In this purpose I have a friend who told me I won’t buy anything else other than Patagonia because I’m on their team. He belongs to that brand. The final thing is that a community is dynamic. It’s not wedded to 1 idea or 1 mission statement it evolves and that’s the beauty of it is that it it changes and it it takes you with them. Ah so I’ll I’ll give you an example in in my I started my community.

06:55.13
Mark Schaefer
And my community is on Discord so first of all I didn’t want to be on Discord but my community said we want to be on Discord so that was an example right? They took me to a new place and it ended up being great I figure all right? We’re on. We have this community to learn about the future of marketing. So they must be interested in what I’m interested in so I started a chat room about personal branding because I wrote about personal branding and public speaking and how to write books Julie those are the emptiest rooms in the whole space because the community said no. Want to learn about the metaverses and Nfts and web three and chat Gpt and artificial intelligence and the future of social media and it’s been great. They’ve carried me along with them I am more informed I am more relevant I am a better educator. Ah, better writer because the community from people from all over the world are taking me new new directions now. Let’s scale that up think of how powerful that idea is for you know, a retailer trying to look at new trends or or almost any company you can think of.

08:03.83
julieewald
That That’s absolutely fantastic and it sounds like there are just if you’re looking at Community based marketing. There are just so many benefits and it’s not even marketing anymore. It really is having that honest community where you have that that like minded um cohort Essentially um.

08:11.80
Mark Schaefer
If you’ve if you’ve got your finger on the pulse of people who love you and support you it can take your brand in in amazing new ways.

08:40.21
julieewald
So one of the things taking it back to what what you said? a couple of questions ago those 3 mega trends that point to community as the future of marketing I don’t want you to give too much away but could you speak to a little bit about what these are and why they’re so being important.

08:55.43
Mark Schaefer
Well, the first one I sort of dissected in a book I wrote a few years ago call marketing rebellion so far. This is my most popular book I hope my new book will. Beat it. But you know marketing rebellion was a great, very very popular beloved book in that book. It was like a wake up call to say look you know as marketers we tend to get in this trench and we do a little bit better on our Facebook ads that we do a little bit better. Our content headlines and our Seo. But it’s time to look up and see what is really working in the world. What our customers really need. They now have the accumulated knowledge of the human race in the palm of their hand they expect more from our marketing. And our businesses. So this is a book about marketing just doesn’t work like it used to that’s mega trend number 1 and in that book I had a chapter about belonging community predicting this was going to become part of the portfolio 1 year after I wrote this book boom. Pandemic and a lot of the things I predicted in that book became true second mega trend which was certainly accelerated and amplified during the pandemic was the chronic mental health issues in the world. Julie you know a few years ago

10:31.31
Mark Schaefer
I saw this headline in The New York Times that said the loneliest generation and it talks about how our children and our teenagers are suffering just record levels of isolation and depression and disconnection and like there was this incredible number. Like 40% of millennials say they have no friends zero friends increasingly and this again the pandemic accelerated this you know we’re we’re locked down and we’re locked out of our normal activities and you know our are the places we find. For social validation relationships and friendships. So it’s in the news everywhere I mean it’s just I think this is one of the major mega trends of at least the next ten years it’s going to have a huge impact on business and on just about. Every aspect of business we can think of the third mega trend is um, the dramatic changes in technology and and ah so much money is being spent on things like the metaverse web 3 and Nfts which might be unfamiliar to a lot of people. But when you get through all the hype and the jargon it really gets down to these are new ways to help people belong to build community in new and exciting ways and it’s happening.

12:05.46
Mark Schaefer
Young people are surging into these spaces and that presents opportunities and also challenges for traditional marketing so you put all these things together. We need to find new ways to go to market our customers are longing. To be connected in some new way. They’re they’re literally crying out for it and then the world is giving us a lot of cool new opportunities to do that I’m you know I’m convinced and it’s it’s already happening that the community is. The next big thing in in marketing and I’ll just maybe this is a maybe this is a bragging a little bit but the the day I wrote the last words of the book. The manuscript was over was done Mckinsey came out with a major research article that said.

12:57.14
julieewald
And so this is absolutely fantastic. You’ve touched on so many things that are really important and kind of these major sea changes in how we engage with each other not just as marketers but also just as people. Um, so there’s a gazillion other questions I have um I think.

13:03.34
Mark Schaefer
Community is the next big thing in marketing So Boom little Mike drop moment. It’s I do believe that that that’s where that’s where the world is going right now.

13:33.40
julieewald
I’m going to go seize on the easy 1 um or easiest one easy I one I should say so ohll we’ll ramp up so what are the things that you know you you kind of touched in already when you were talking with someone and they were saying like hey no I have a community but they didn’t actually have a community. They just had an audience they they.

13:33.92
julieewald
Talked at ah what else are brands. You know, really getting wrong when they’re trying to build communities.

13:36.73
Mark Schaefer
Oh don’t oweing the on me come on.

13:58.71
Mark Schaefer
Well I did touch on the you know I would say the number 1 problem is they’re just looking at it as a way to to sell more stuff to make their quarterly numbers and this is really a function of culture. If if the culture can’t support the idea of community and community is really different. It’s a commitment. It requires a new type of leadership mindset to be successful. You know if the community if the. Culture of of the company can’t support. It. It’s not going to work your company culture is your marketing That’s what shows up if you’re if you’re buttoned down and you know very legalistic and you got to go to the legal department for every. Question someone poses on Facebook this is not going to work. You know if you’re but if you’re very customer-centered and open to try new things. Absolutely this could work so that’s that’s probably the the biggest issue I see those in the community world will say. The biggest problem they face is it’s it’s it’s usually underourced. That’s one of the things I say in the book is that you know I believe the community manager is probably the most important human asset.

15:27.44
Mark Schaefer
In the marketing department because that becomes the face of the of the brand. That’s the customer touch point that’s building the emotion and so um, that you just you just can’t skimp skimp when it comes to that role.

15:42.20
julieewald
And I think that there’s a big value in growing further human-to- humanman connections and starting as you’re saying with that role having the person who is going to be that standpoint to be that that first human-to human connection for the brand is so vital so you we’ve kind of talked about if. If. Let’s say for any organization who’s starting to move towards a community. It sounds like 1 they need to adjust their to make sure that they’re being open and receptive and they’re able to be properly positioned and then two to make sure they have the right individual to manage these communities. Is there anything else that you think needs to be lined up for that to be successful.

16:19.66
Mark Schaefer
Well, the the other thing Julie that I spent a lot of time on the book is it’s something I touched on earlier is this idea of purpose and it doesn’t have to be perfect because the purpose can you know can grow and change over time. But. Um, you need to spend some time thinking about what do we want to accomplish in the world. What’s the impact we’re going to make in the world and how can we do it better. How can we have a bigger impact if we have a community behind us and we do it together and and there’s I have. A chapter in the book and there’s lots of prompts and ideas to help. Ah you know when I say companies it really can be a nonprofit. It can be a university. It could be any kind of organization. This fits. Um, so there’s there’s lots of ideas in the book to to kind of. Dissect and explore these possibilities about and this is see this is another way It’s so different from traditional marketing traditional marketing. We think about what’s our value proposition or value proposition might be. We have the biggest selection of you know, um, you know tractors. Or we have the best service or we have the greatest selection of deli meats or we have the best location that’s great. We need to know those things but that’s not a reason to gather so the mission statement. The value proposition is different from this.

17:38.13
julieewald
And that’s absolutely fantastic. Um, so as we’re building a community. What are some challenges that you know should be anticipated.

17:50.41
Mark Schaefer
This purpose that’s going to become central to your community.

18:11.80
Mark Schaefer
Well resources. Um, you know to me just speaking for my experience. Ah, it’s just well let’s put it this way. There’s a quote in the book that I think is very powerful.

18:25.92
Mark Schaefer
Um, there’s a fella in in England that does something very similar to me I mean he had a a traditional b two b marketing agency and it just wasn’t going anywhere I mean just you know a lot of the traditional marketing just wasn’t helping him like it wasn’t helping his customers is any. He’s feeling a little lost so he started this community and it started like many communities with 5 or 6 people they were meeting for lunch every month and they started saying I’m kind of friend I’d like to bring soon they were taking up the whole table then they were taking up a whole room and he said let’s. Like formalize this and see where it where it goes well now his community is bigger than his business. His community is his business and he said Mark this is so disorienting because the leadership in a community. Is different than they teach you at the university it’s like you have to elevate others. You have to give up power. You have to you know your biggest goal is to create a safe culture and to dispense. ah ah you know a reward system. To to this dispense status in the community to create content. That’s not really about selling the attributes of your products but things that will get people interested in in your products and services.

20:01.90
Mark Schaefer
Or just ideas that are going to take everybody forward. Um engagement is probably the most valuable measure I mean I’ve been a huge critic of engagement as ah as a metric I you know I think it’s one of the poorest metrics whenever you look at social media or content marketing. But I’m absolutely 100% in the camp of saying engagement is a sign of the vitality of the community and that’s going to lead to bigger things. 1 of the case studies in the book is Sephora Sephora brick and mortar business. Cosmetics skin care products. However, 80% of their revenue comes from their online community and their number one metric is engagement because engagement shows they’re moving in the right direction. So I think. The the leadership in the context of of community can be very disorienting and it it takes time and patience to get in the groove of what this really means it’s been disorienting for me, but it’s also been. You know one of the greatest. Educations of my life.

21:18.22
julieewald
No, so it sounds like you know if you if you’re working in an organization. You convince if you convince the boss to start a community engagement is one way that you know you’re doing it right? What are some of the other indicators. That you’re nailing. It.

21:39.41
Mark Schaefer
Well obviously hopefully at some point you’re going to be able to attribute some kind of revenue to the community. Um, you know that’s that’s that’s you know that that can’t be the central purpose but that’s you know what? a business needs to do eventually. I think the most interesting metric is customer advocacy and I think it’s very interesting and very important in many ways because we’re living in a world now. We’re living in this streaming media economy where we don’t see ads I mean. I watch more tv than I’ve ever watched in my life but it’s on you know Amazon prime. It’s on Netflix it’s on you know Disney plus and yeah I’m watching the mandalorian or maybe I’m streaming spotify I’m listening to music or I’m listening to audiobooks and. So we just have you know our the attention we’re ah we’re paying to ads it’s down like 95% in the last five years they’re they’re almost invisible so we’ve got to find this new way to connect. Even if people see the ads. They’re not going to believe it. Trust in businesses brands brands and advertising has declined 15 years in a row but people trust each other they trust what other people are saying now if you can get to a point where people are so interested.

23:08.99
Mark Schaefer
And so connected to a community that the excitement is being shared outside the community. Wow I mean that is really an interesting idea here’s an example of how this is working for me. 1 of the things we do in our community. Is. We do experiments in the metaverse and I actually have a metaverse penthouse. It’s fake. It’s two stories. It’s got a hot tub. It’s got a dance floor. It’s got a meaning room. You know it’s got a kitchen and all this stuff. Haven’t been able to really explain this to my wife yet why this is on my credit card. But ah, you know so we do these things in the metaverse where people in my community learn to give presentations in the metaverse and we’ve had like Ai art shows in the metaverse and we’re learning all these things well after our last one. We jumped into another metaverse penthouse that was on a ski slope and we learned how to jump in a fake hot tub in our clothes. We’re up to you know our next in digital water kind of weird but we’re seeing the sunset over these beautiful snowy. Mountains. It’s beautiful I’m sitting in a hot tub with people from all over the world and people are taking screenshots of this because it’s extraordinary and it’s fun and it’s a memory. We’ll never forget and they’re taking those screenshots and they’re putting them.

24:42.56
Mark Schaefer
All over the internet and here’s what happened people said this is amazing. How do I join this is how do I get involved I think I’m really missing out on something so this idea of brand advocacy. You know you know you you know you you live in this world of ugc user generated content I mean that is the Holy Grail of social media or content marketing today or influence marketing today when you get people independently advocating for what you’re doing.

25:14.59
julieewald
And that’s an absolutely fabulous story and it makes me feel that you know there’s a little bit of fomo right now. Ah I need I need to get in there. Oh.

25:19.20
Mark Schaefer
By sharing your ideas and your and your content even a screenshot of a fake hot tub I mean that’s that’s that’s the the best. It’s the ultimate marketing. It’s it’s better than any ad you would ever buy.

25:37.64
Mark Schaefer
Come on and join it’s free. It’s free. It’s open come on in the water’s fine. Water’s fake. Actually it’s fake but it’s ninth. Yeah, the right temperature. Always.

25:44.36
julieewald
Love it. But it’s fine but fake and fine. Oh oh, that’s that’s great. So one of the things that we’ve talked about here and then just as a focus in your book.

25:42.34
julieewald
Ah, is the idea around mental health and the healing psychology of Community One of the things that keeps coming up in conversations I’m having with all sorts of folks um is around mental health and marketing. They keep ending up in the same sentence. So for some folks who. Don’t trust Marketers which as we know is a decent percentage of the population. Yeah, um, they might argue that this is just you know a new evolution and targeting and um, however, others would argue that this is indeed Genuine. Empathy.

26:13.44
Mark Schaefer
Yes.

26:20.27
Mark Schaefer
Almost everyone room.

26:34.63
julieewald
I’m just kind of wondering you know what your take on this is and why do you think this is such a big trend.

26:39.69
Mark Schaefer
All right? So let me let me answer it two ways. So we we are starting to see this creep into marketing culture I think I really thought for the first time about a year ago I was watching um the. You know March madness basketball tournament in America and one of the sponsors was power aid they created a whole advertising campaign called pause. The spokesperson was Simone Biles who like stepped out of the biggest moment in her career. Mentally, she wasn’t ready in the olympics and I just thought this was extraordinary. A sports drink who’s about you know, action and achievement and you know doing your best work. You know, running your best race and saying pause and to me that was really. A sign that it’s that it’s taking hold the brands are starting to recognize now you bring up a really interesting point. You do do we get to a point where this could seem insincere and manufactured here’s the view I would take about community. This book belonging to the brand is a business book. It’s a business book that lays out a really unassailable argument why there are amazing benefits to a brand community that are completely overlooked.

28:16.35
Mark Schaefer
Almost every business in the World. So It has to be something that we consider for you know all the I you know I have a whole chapter just on benefits and you know you just you owe it to yourself and your and your and your business. And your boss to at least consider it now. This is not a book that’s pollyannish saying hey start a community and save the world. What I’m saying is when you create a community. There are these secondary Benefits. We need community. Not want it. We need it for a psychological health our mental health even our physical health which is an extraordinary little fact I point out in the book and by the way you know the the things that I propose in my book and all these benefits. It’s not like just my idea this is all based on you know days and weeks and months of research that I did. It’s all backed up by research and and Statistics. So The idea is this is marketing that works. But it’s also. Marketing that heals and that’s kind of extraordinary to think about this is the only kind of marketing I know of that people will actually embrace you know they’re not going to block it. They’re not going to walk out of the room when your ad comes on Tv You know I’ve got people in my community.

29:52.22
Mark Schaefer
They’re they’re almost like addicted to it. They’re there. You know every day and they’re just starting all these and and I’m in a lot of other communities that are like that too. They’re just incredible engagement and support and validation going on. Yes, that helps you as a company but it’s also helping people in the community. You know feel esteemed feel rewarded feel heard feel acknowledged and and and and especially that’s especially important for young people in teens today.

30:23.75
julieewald
And that is a really that sorry this is like the best way to go out to wrap up this podcast that was a brilliant answer. We’re all or over I have 1 more question maybe to so again, just want to circle back to you know, belonging to the brand. Not your first book.

30:24.22
julieewald
Um, I’ve been talking with a lot of other folks in the marketing world who are either publishing or getting into publishing if we can go in the time machine. What was your impetus for putting together your first book and getting it out there.

30:30.24
Mark Schaefer
Are we over already all okay.

30:59.70
Mark Schaefer
Um I I interviewed I got to interview Tom Peters a couple weeks ago and I talked to him two years ago Tom Peters is the author of in search of excellence. The bestselling. Business book in history. He’s always recognized as 1 of the top business thought leaders of the century so two years ago when I talked to him. He told me he was retiring and now I hear I am talking him to him. Two years later and he has a new book out and I said what’s the deal. Dude you told me you’re retiring he said I’m desperate to get my ideas out and I think that’s what drives any successful writer or speaker. You know if you’re not. Desperate to get your ideas out I think your book is going to be lacking a certain passion and urgency and and and and really authenticity and I think that’ll fall flat with with the reader or someone listening to you. You speak and you know I don’t have a plan to write books There’s this like I I get obsessed with an idea obsessed with a problem and um, you know once I figure it out. It’s like this is big. This really is big.

32:29.66
Mark Schaefer
And you know I I got to get it out and and so that’s really what drove me from the beginning and it drives every single book. Um a book writing a book for me is and just an ah exhausting process and maybe it won’t be in the future with chat Gpt. That remains to be seen. But I mean I put everything into this book. It’s such a sacrifice such a personal risk to write a book. Um, and you know. The only thing that goes through my mind when I write a book is I will I will never let you down because I know there’s many many people out there who buy my book just because I wrote it because they believe in what I’m doing they know I’m not going to let them down so to me, it’s a big risk and it’s just.

33:15.84
julieewald
And and you’ve put out quite a few big ideas. You know you have quite a few titles out there. Um, if so I am in full disclosure I’ve bought quite a few of them I’m also a book giver I am the I am the person who goes and finds an idea that I latch onto and start handing them out like candy. So if.

33:21.72
Mark Schaefer
I I got it I gotta get it out. You know it’s just like I know this is gonna help people I Just can’t wait for them to see it because this is gonna be in a new big idea I’m putting out into the world. It.

33:50.13
Mark Schaefer
Oh thank you.

33:54.30
julieewald
If you had to pick one of your titles as the must read for every marketer which one is it.

34:00.17
Mark Schaefer
Well this this might surprise you but absolutely number 1 the first book they need to read is known known is about personal branding. And Julie we’re living in a world where artificial intelligence is nipping at our heels. It’s it’s threatening our to overtake our skills our experiences in some cases our careers and I’m convinced The only thing that can save us is the connect the connection and the emotion that people have to you as a personal brand if you’re unknown just putting information into the world. You know your you could be vulnerable with what’s going to happen. You know we we we’ve you know I when when chat Gpt came out I wrote a blog post and I wrote words I’ve never written or said before in my life and the words were marketing has been changed forever today. Starting now I wouldn’t have even said that at the beginning of the internet because we didn’t know years to figure it out right? But now artificial intelligence has been unleashed in on on the world in the world in it. Easy to use form.

35:31.97
Mark Schaefer
And the only thing that will save us is if you’re known I mean when I write a book people are going to buy the book artificial. Intelligence is isn’t going to take away my audience because they know me they trust me they believe in me, maybe they even love me. And that emotional connection which comes from the hard work of creating a personal brand is the only thing that’ll save us and every college class I lecture to every teenager or college student I beg them to be working on this now and you know.

35:54.28
julieewald
And so I think I know which a book I’ll be stocking up on. Ah so team and pressa you know what’s going to be part of your Christmas package. Ah next year everyone gets one so Mark this has been absolutely fantastic. You’ve shared some really great insights.

36:09.50
Mark Schaefer
And every professional.

36:11.53
julieewald
Um, you’ve given us um a lot of good stuff particularly around ah belonging to the brand I’m pretty excited to dig into that book and I’m hopefully the audiences as well. I think that the idea of these brand communities and building that genuine community especially as we’re talking about things like chat.

36:47.84
julieewald
Chatchi Bt and artificial intelligence and all this kind of stuff who building that genuine community with those real human connections is going to be more valuable than ever. So Mark. Thank you.

37:00.32
Mark Schaefer
Absolutely yeah, whether it’s for the community or you as ah as a personal brand you’re you’re right on Target thank you so much for having me thanks for trust trusting me to come on your show in the early days and best best wishes and you’re you’re going to be great because I I loved how.

37:06.90
julieewald
Up.

37:01.42
julieewald
Thank you, thank you and thank you for ah for putting up with me as I’m trying to get some more polish on this. You know, well’ well well maybe we’ll have you back when I get the get the hang of it in a few few months or years we’ll see how long it takes.

37:16.92
Mark Schaefer
Well prepared. You were for the interview so congratulations Julie.

37:30.78
Mark Schaefer
I Hope you do hope we hope you do

37:35.46
julieewald
Oh brilliant, thank you so much. Mark.