00:01.95
julieewald
Hey everyone welcome to the allbound awesomeness podcast where we talk about inbound outbound sales marketing all that kind of good stuff ah brought to you by impressive solutions and today we are here with. Fantastic John Mcreevy for those of you don’t know John he is a freelance copywriter and email stratist who works with Sas companies to be less boring. He is also the host of the sass as fuck podcast and the freelance frontier live q and as when he’s not ranting about tedious and soless sas copywriting. He’s probably daydreaming playing video games with his wife Jesse or brewing surprisingly good kombucha that sounds delicious. Um, thanks for being here John so um I guess you know we’ll we’ll jump right into it. So.

00:44.70
Jon
Thanks for having me on. It’s lovely to be here.

00:56.41
julieewald
Primarily it sounds like you do a lot of of email copywriting but word on the street is I’ve heard a rumor that you maybe kind of hate marketing emails. Um, can you kind of explain the you know what’s going on there.

01:09.90
Jon
I yeah I can I do I hate marketing emails. It’s a strange and niche to kind of pick but that was kind of like kind of basically when I started into copywriting like 2 years or so ago I am. But right? what what I want to write an email is 1 thing I didn’t want to write because I get so sick of either badly written or boring or just those emails that just kind of get fired at you with no real thought and and they they annoy me so much I unsubscribe from pretty much everything that gets in my inbox if if something makes it to like 3 emails. They’re doing surprisingly well and so I thought well I’m not gonna do that because I I don’t like it and then I realized it was last year I did um I was like okay I’ll love look at email to kind of give it a chance after talking to um summer away she’s a Sas copywriter the focus on emails and. Do her my podcast and I talked to her and I was like okay I’ll give it a look because she seems to love it. She seems to really good. She kind of sold me on it a bit I joined her Sas um email course and then I was like oh no, actually the thing I don’t like is how crap they are and so if i. If I write better emails. That’s a good thing and that’s actually better. So I’ve kind of channeled that annoyance and that dislike strong dislike of marketing emails into my career now which may or may not end up being a bad decision.

02:41.22
julieewald
I dig I Dig So let’s take it back a little bit further. So what did your journey look like how did you end up getting into to marketing and copywriting.

02:52.91
Jon
Um I don’t it was before this so I was I spent 13 years working in tech I was a software tester. My days were spent just looking for bugs and issues and just testing software working with developers working in tech companies. And I hated it I absolutely hated it I was sick of just kind of 9 to 5 sick of managers sick of annual objective setting I was sick of making other companies money while they’re going but we can’t afford to give you under the £1000 whereas they’re making. Sometimes millions in profit and you get well I’m sick of this and so I was kind of like the 1 thing I’ve loved doing all my life is writing and so my wife Jess luche said to me like wait. Why don’t you just write? Why don’t you love writing do that and I was kind of not very short I went and kind of did some more research and then kind of came across something that talked about copywriting and went oh okay. Looks interesting that looks really exciting actually and I listen to the Copywriter Club Podcast a bit try and get better idea of it I end up stumbling upon and an episode from um I forgot his name now which is terrible because he’s so give me a moment.

04:07.30
julieewald
Yes, you can.

04:08.21
Jon
Josh just name Josh so I’m gonna quit just search there so I want to just blank you here.

04:13.57
julieewald
No go for it.

04:17.20
Jon
My days. Ah so I stumble across an episode with Josh Garofffalo and he talked about Sas I was like oh well I’ve I’ve tested Sas products I love tech and that kind of and let me go oh well, you know I’ll be a Sas copywriter then and this was probably. Two and a half years ago I’ll do that started doing it in my kind of free time trying to do it and I found out that one I was good and 2 people wanted to hire me and so I I kind of quit my job one day after a pretty cooked dull and um. Just generic meeting my manager about objective setting I was like no this is it I’m I’m not I can’t do anymore I’ve got other people that want me to write for them. Why would I keep doing this and I quit that day and I haven’t relooked back since.

05:09.43
julieewald
You know that’s absolutely fantastic. Um, and I really do enjoy you know hearing stories from people who’ve actually found something that they’re passionate about and enjoy particularly when you’re coming from something that just was not feeding your soul at all. So ok. So.

05:21.84
Jon
Um, yeah.

05:27.40
julieewald
You know as you’ve been kind of immersing yourself in the world of copywriting and marketing for the past two and a half years um so obviously where I talked about you not being too keen on um marketing emails is there anything else that you’re seeing kind of either emerging in the world of marketing or things that marketers have been doing that you’re like.

05:47.42
julieewald
Oh that you maybe have ah some words for.

05:50.86
Jon
yeah yeah I I’ve got to be careful, not just rant for hours because that’s it is yeah yes, yes, it’s generic writing generic marketing voice. Um, and you see it in every industry but I work within. Saas specifically and so I see it a lot there. It feels like everyone’s trying to sound like trello in 2013. That’s where everyone reads like every header is like oh the ultimate solution for streamlining your team’s activities and ah don’t that tells me nothing. It’s just got no actual personality. It’s just kind of you know it’s written this generic voice and and I’d get sick of that just st throwing out buzzwords and having no personality and no humor There’s no there’s no humanity in it and so if you if I read something and it feels like I mean nowadays a good test is. If you read it and go could this have been written by chat gp then it’s pretty soulless and you know Ai is something that does get a good average of what people are already doing and that’s kind of what a lot of copywriters already. Do they just go right? Okay, well I read. This other page that sounded like this. Oh I went to notions landing page and so I’ll just you know pretty much say what they’ve said and it’s just so darll and uninspiring and so I’ll I’ll find myself irrationally kind of signing up to a tool that might be subpar just by the virtue. They’ve got just a bit more personality or a bit more fun or.

07:20.29
Jon
So just anything really even if it’s not like that. Even if it’s like particularly Stern or passionate about something that’s better than just saying the same gen geneticric stuff. So yeah, like that that kind of as you can probably tell boils my blood slightly and it’s ah I think I don’t think it’s necessarily um. Kind of a lack of quality. It’s more just a lack of creativity and maybe an element of um complacency in the industry. They kind of feel like they can just you know, go through the motions then people just sign up and maybe they don’t realize that they can have a different voice in a different tone.

07:56.41
julieewald
I Yeah, that’s one of the things with Chatchi beat tea and kind of this rise of a I It’s really interesting to see how you know the the writers who are the most scared about it are the ones who are kind of churning out a lot of the stuff that was so so soulless that is generic that is has the um that corporate voice. Um you know and. You know for those folks I Guess Chatchi Pt is is coming for their jobs. Um, but it does give ever. You know it does give folks the opportunity to start doing stuff that is going to be unique and that is going to be more you know, better create and better encapsulate these brands that they’re working for so speaking of a I.

08:30.59
Jon
Um.

08:33.40
julieewald
How have you been tapping into that.

08:37.33
Jon
I I have I like technology. Um, ah um I would call myself a technologist and I I make side to anything new that comes in I think ai is another technology to be excited about and I think it has its place in marketing has its place to a writer The place isn’t writing everything but it’s a great tool using it for research or ideas generation. You know, even kind of sometimes like outline but the kind of the outlines they spit out is very much kind of again very just generic and cookie cutter and so. Not necessarily that as much but it’s I think what it’s good for is kind of finding those blind spots. So if I’m writing a so series of emails or a blog post that cover themes just putting in there or give me an outline of this or give me ideas for this and there might be things I’ll go oh didn’t think about that. That’s then that’s really useful I guess it’s you know it’s. Similar to bouncing ideas off somebody else in the know, um, which a bit more convenient and it kind of scoured it for you but on the but on the other hand. Um, there’s a reliance on Ai right now that kind of ought a perceived increased reliance on ai. And I’m sure there are companies that are generating huge amounts of content with Ai and some people you know lots of tech bros on Twitter like to spend their days going. Oh you could just churn out 12 blogs a week and they’ll be amazing for your seo but at the same time.

10:06.24
Jon
I think it’s also going to be a bit of ah a curse for those people long term I think that ai detection tools already exist. They’re going to get better There’s going to be a bit of a back and forth and I think that long term you can look at places like Google and bing if if you’re into that kind of thing and they will eventually incorporate that stuff that will. Identify and filter out and Deprioritze Ai Generated Content so even though it has its place in marketing and in content generation process when it comes to the actual writing side of it I think that it’s going to be a bit of a poison chalice long term for people who um. Rely on it for the actual writing part which you know that’s a very much long I think I entered more questions than you asked then.

10:52.58
julieewald
And no, that was absolutely brilliant and you know it’s one of the things that we’ve seen this with some of our clients. Um, you know we work with a lot of folks in the saas space and we’ve you know a lot of tech tech other kinds of tech companies and you know we’ve had folks being like well why? Why don’t you just have. A I write the thing. Why’d you just tell of writers and it’s like well if you’d like to have an entire blog that sounds exactly the same using information from two and a half years ago you know more power to you go ahead? However, Noah’s going to going to read that and your bounce rate is going to be absolutely astounding after a while you know, even in the short term. It’s just not.

11:13.00
Jon
Um, yeah.

11:21.11
Jon
Um, exactly it needs to be good to read and if things aren’t good to read Then what’s the point.

11:25.64
julieewald
Not there.

11:31.78
julieewald
Yeah, exactly if only I could convince all of our clients and potential and our prospects of that if only get everyone on the same page that would be great. Um, so what? um overall in marketing.

11:34.33
Jon
Yeah, yeah.

11:45.67
julieewald
What have you been really eyeing up new trends that you’ve really been enjoying or you know just overall what are what are some of the things that you’re excited about.

11:55.25
Jon
Yeah, so I kind of you know I think I’ve probably alluded to it pretty strongly already that personality and humor. Um, storytelling those kind of the human aspects of of marketing are going to be very much. You know? that’s that’s the best thing in marketing right now anytime there’s something that feels a bit more human and feels a bit more self-deprecating or at least self-aware I think that social media is a great platform for seeing that kind of stuff you’re seeing more and more counts with kind of you know, tiktoks a great place I know a lot of people will be kind of. You know I was quite resistant Tiktok I’m thirty six years old and for bit I was like come out. Dont know from what I’ve heard it’ just dancing teenagers and that’s not for me. But you know there’s so much content there is so thing and you know you see brands making effectively an advert that you want to watch. It’s entertaining. It’s engaging the people now charismatic and that kind of content whether it’s on social media on your website and your emails and your blogs is going to be like I’m seeing more and more and it’s just so good and it it means that you can be so much more selective about. Like the brands that you choose based on that and you can I think it’s also you see the brands that see the opportunity to stand out. Um amongst their competitors and I think that’s kind of the biggest thing is you know likeability is probably what it comes down to more than anything else is that if it feels like.

13:22.73
Jon
You like the person or like the thing they’re saying or you relate to it then you’re gonna like the whole brand and you like the whole thing you know I think we’re moving away from the days where everything is written into churchd generic. We at you know tech x believe this this this and this is what we’re gonna do for you. It. You know you can actually have blogs or videos or content from the Ceo or from the marketing team or even the developers. Whatever all these different people in the company can make honest content that is engaging and is about the people as well as just the the company as a whole. So I like that and that’s what draws me towards things you example I always give weirdly is oatley the oat milk brand is that I went to think my me and my partner with the supermarket went. We’re Goingnna try out milk and then we look to the wall of oat milk and went I don’t know. What any of this means I don’t know what’s good or what’s bad and then purely because I saw a joke on the side of an oatly carton and it and it looked different and had a little cartoon and it was just a bit you know they just they weren’t taking it too seriously and you could tell a personality it made jokes about the Ceo on then it made you know it. Had all these things that made you go? Oh okay, you know, even though it’s just I like the person who designed that cart and that was still more than any of the company had and so that’s what I like to see and that’s what you know we see companies doing better nowadays when they have a bit more personality to them, especially newer companies that are taking more risks and.

14:55.45
Jon
Showing a bit more showing a bit more personality in the content.

14:58.30
julieewald
And for sure like I don’t want to put any words in your mouth but really for thinking about like the future of marketing at least for the near term. It really seems that there’s that shift in terms of personality more human humanized everything you know, having more community and all of this you know more people less.

15:15.76
Jon
Move.

15:17.86
julieewald
Corporate Shenanigans um, because the example you gave especially with ticktok is really Great. So I I’m about to be 42 really resistant to ticktock and I’m like you know what I went down this rabbit hole I Really highly recommend paying some time there. It’s so it’s really engaging because you have allowed this great user created content. Some of it’s absolutely hilarious. Some of it is really Insightful. You get to dive these glimpses into all of these people’s lives which is fantastic and then yes you know shuffled into it are these brand messages where it might be someone doing sponsored content. Um, sometimes just very subtly. Um, other times though, it’s It’s just a straight up. Ad that I realize I’m watching this ad and I’m enjoying the ad and then I look at the little you know the bomb of the screen and I’m like I’ll be damned. Ok I think you’ve got you’ve got me.

16:00.57
Jon
Yeah, you kind of you’ve been tricked, but you also have respect for it especially working in marketing kind like no fair play I I watched that and enjoyed it and then then realized what I was watching.

16:14.67
julieewald
Yeah, no, very very much so um and some of it’s really you know, especially when it is coming from entrepreneurs from business owners. You know someone talking about like this is my company. This is my product. This is what you know in in a very human way like this is why I started it or this is what we’re currently going through. Um, so you know.

16:26.99
Jon
Um.

16:32.46
julieewald
etc I’m like Gee Louise it’s it’s it’s so compelling and it’s so engaging. Um, not that I’ve gone and bought anything off of tiktok yet I you know I’m no I don’t know what my future holds. But um I think for marketing. It’s really this personalization of everything and this more this human touch is really. You know what’s going to ah to be the big wave.

16:50.84
Jon
I think I think you’re right like and I you know I think it’s putting words to mouth I completely agree with what you said I think that you mentioned community as well and that’s what you kind of do and that’s what you know those kind of platforms do but that’s what generally brands have always done really is build a community. You know the kind of the I guess the. The biggest example is you know Apple or Android and things of that is that you have these communities of people who really have these massive biases towards something and they kind of go right? I’ve invested in that therefore I’m staying and but you see that more if you’re rooting for people and we like people more than companies if you like them and root them then you will. You’ll do more. You’ll buy from them or you’ll tell someone else to watch their stuff or you’ll you know’ll you’ll share it or you’ll subscribe to their Patreon if. It’s a content creator if it’s a brand you might go and try their product or you know all these things it does become a a community because you are rooting for the people. You can’t build a community in the same way when you’re just around like just like a faceless brand. It’s normally around the people that are involved and the people there and I think that it’s it’s a massive part of it and yeah personalization from both sides I guess it’s the it’s both content that’s better for the person but also. It’s the content is personalized for the company and it’s actually got people talking and people with feelings and emotions and stuff and it’s it’s more honest and so we’re more trusting I guess is the kind of the the end result of it.

18:19.85
julieewald
And yeah I think that’s a big thing it does establish so much more trust and rapport with having that actual that actual human and it’s something that you know for again, a lot of our clients really trying to push them to be able to have you know their business leaders. There. Their sales and customer service team. Their founders etc be more front and center with their marketing and do more of their stuff through For example, their personal Linkedin versus their brand page because know what no one wants to follow follow their brand but you know if they’re giving that good quality. You know quality content and building that trust and report it’s going to go so much further.

18:55.78
Jon
Um, yeah.

18:56.93
julieewald
It’s the idea of you know also just giving and actually helping and and building value as opposed to sell sell sell.

19:00.96
Jon
Yes, yeah Values A very good word though it is because valu means anything. It’s either helping you or it’s entertaining you or it’s you know giving it’s giving you something even if it’s just a quick laugh or it could be something deeply helpful that that is Value. We kind of we inherently. Trust people more and like people more and they’re going to listen to you more if they’ve given us that.

19:23.83
julieewald
Yeah, no so very very true. So what do you do for your own marketing.

19:29.93
Jon
I am well I I think this is kind of probably applies to from what I’ve seen quite a few marketers that it’s quite I’ve been pretty bad I’ve been pretty complacent I’ve not done as much I’ve made plans and I’ve started things and i. Divate away and kind of my my next step is going to be to stick to something but I kind of my marketing so far has been when I first started I started a podcast sassy as fuck podcast with my friend Alex who’s a producer which is convenient by the way starting a podcast and being friend with the producer is la. And I kind of thought oh let’s do that and I kind of didn’t know wires like that could be good and it’s end up being like that was really useful. That was really that went really well and I could you know end up a bunch of the guests ended up being clients and they’ve referred me and listeners have been in touch and you know it’s It’s done a lot and then since then it’s been either repeat business or kind of referrals and nothing really I’ve done since then is really kind of generated a new business I’ve not really done very much. It’s it’s something I need to do more and I’m in the process of creating you know a lead magnet and creating some actual condedoma website and. Doing more things that will actually kind of you know, giving that value I guess is what I need to do next because even though I’m I’m very fortunate that I’m still getting plenty of work from those referrals and from the repeat business but you know that’s not long term.

21:05.81
Jon
That’s not good enough and so yeah I I kind of it’s yeah I think it’s not good because I know that I’m not doing enough I haven’t done enough and so I’m in the process of doing that now and yeah, it’s gonna be ah I’m going to be creating more content a website and some social videos and ah you know a lead magnet. But you know, largely speaking for the last year nothing which is pretty shameful to say on ah on a marketing podcast as a marketer then I haven’t and I’ve been resting on my laurels.

21:41.57
julieewald
No I Um, it’s something that we struggle with you know and and with our agency we always kind of do this thing where we strive to be our own best client but it’s an effort. We keep having to renew over and over again because it’s so hard to stick with it. Client work comes in you start to prioritize that you spend more time with sales.

21:48.41
Jon
Wow.

21:55.90
julieewald
It’s really hard to to devote that time or to you know in my case, take someone and put someone in a role be like own this to actually treat us like a client. Um, but no so many marketers are are so poor at that we do a lot of work with other agencies and sometimes we’ll talk to someone they’re like oh yeah, we so you know we specialize in social media. And they haven’t updated their Twitter in like 3 years until it’s like oh oh my? um.

22:16.73
Jon
Which which is well I always do the same check if someone says like you know I’ll I’ll do your tiktoks for you and like like I you’ve only got like 3 followers and 20 views on Tiktok I’m not sure this best thing but I don’t think that’s actually a good reflection on their ability do because you’re right and you kind of nell on the head is that. You always prioritize client work because that’s got a financial short-term value to it is that you know a marketing video. Yeah, you can’t really measure long-term how much you’ve earnt from that thing and especially when you’re making it if you wake up and you go right? Okay I’ve got either this to write for a client or. Set up my camera and record some videos It’s so easy to push that back and that’s what you know? That’s what I’ve done a lot That’s what yeah I think that’s like you said I think it’s so easy to do and it’s kind of an irony of marketing. But yeah often marketers are terrible at market themselves whereas sometimes you’ll see kind of. Sololoreneurs who’ve got this like 1 like tech company. They’ve created by themselves. It’s a 1 person shop and they’re creating all these videos and they’re doing this marketing stuff and like and they they should now have the time to do that and they’re doing more than I’m doing so I should probably sort my shit out.

23:30.28
julieewald
You know when I see folks who are doing all of the things I just kind of picture them just subsiding on caffeine and a complete lack of sleep and it’s like I want better for myself. You know, but.

23:36.12
Jon
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I so I like having hobbies I like being a stop in the evening and playing video games or going for a walk or any of that stuff. But I feel like yeah, there’s an element of they seem to just be on twenty four seven and fair Platon and especially ons are doing well. But you look at the ones that are doing the same effort and not getting as far and feel like ah that that would kill me I think just to work that hard then go from there. No one’s no one signed up. Still.

24:06.53
julieewald
Yeah, yeah, no, that would that would not be a good feeling if that’s a if that’s you for anyone listening to this I’m sorry talk to us we we we can help you we can help. Um, so but you are doing. You know your podcast sassy as fuck. Um.

24:13.24
Jon
Yeah, okay.

24:24.17
julieewald
Tell me a little more about it.

24:24.84
Jon
Um, um, so yeah, so it was it came from me going I’m going to be a Sas copywriter what next I don’t you know I didn’t mean know anyone except for just past employers I didn’t really know anyone who worked in sas special not saas marketing I had no real idea and so and okay. I went through some ideas thought podcast I like I like podcast don’t listen to loads but ones that I like I really enjoy listening to I like that you can do it while driving or doing the dishes or but whatever you can go. It’s more dynamic and so okay, I’ll do that and yeah, friend of ours is a producer sorry hey Alex how would you like to come in. And produce a podcast for nothing for no money at all and for some reason he said yes and agreed to do it and he came in and it’s been great. We’ve had we had some. We’ve had some great founders marketers copywriters on the podcast taught to um, we’ve learned some like for me personally.

25:22.76
Jon
Hearing their kind of stories and experiences has taught me more than anything else about Sas and about Sas marketing and several of them become I said kind of clients but also friends and mentors. Um, and they’ve been really, that’s from really good and the intros and Outros tend to be just me and Alex just talking crap and. Making jokes and just muck it about really I think it’s quite liberating especially at the start and we kind of went ah well no, one’s gonna listen to this so it doesn’t matter what we say or do and so we just kind of mucked around and made jokes and they got to point where people were starting to listen and. The podcast and the episodes were getting longer and longer. We okay, we’d better reign that in a bit but it’s it’s you know it’s good informal interviews with experts around saas and marketing and you know as as um, marketing as a whole some great advice in there. Um. And some great people not for me the advice from me is I’m I’m just going to sat there just in a the people have agreed to come on I just been and and yes, that’s kind of it really is lot lot of kind of advice lot of interviews. Lots of chat and you know and it’s the review I get most is it’s surprisingly funny for. Sas podcast which I’ll take I will take that any day of the week although I did realize that calling it sassy as fuck which was named because it just made me laugh one day but that’s a funny name is was a terrible choice because some things just won’t show it because it’s got excuseness god it’s got asterisks to.

26:35.34
julieewald
Yeah.

26:53.56
Jon
Mask The swearing to degree. It gets centered by that search Engines can’t find it certain search engines bring back Very inappropriate results. Um, and yeah, yeah, so that was a bad choice. The name was a bad choice. But Overall it’s been Ah, it’s been a very good experience and it’s been very. Very fun for me.

27:12.20
julieewald
So how do you select your guests.

27:15.73
Jon
Um, it’s been all the same except one. So mostly I just get that person’s interesting I’d love to talk to them and so I’ll just message them and hope for the best and surprisingly pretty much every one of messages said yes, it’s been. Amazing I kind of I was I was expecting a lot of blockings or who are you but people yeah people tend to be lovely people who’ take the time and so they said yes, they they came on and they were great. Interview. 1 time we accepted. Basically. AhV a got in touch going look this Ceo or this person wants to be on your podcast. Can they come on and have a chat and so went. Oh that’s cool. That’s easier for us. We’t have to search him out. They just come to us and we said yes and we should not have said yes because this is a guy that clearly.

28:11.47
Jon
Was you know he he was knowledgeable enough but he was Disinterested. He wasn’t excited to be there. He clearly had like a calendar full of these things and he was just trying to get through it for exposure and he just didn’t really. Okay, didn’t really what he didn’t want to be there. He wasn’t you know the person that we can of went. That’s that guy’s call would love town talk to him and so yeah, every time like we tried to bring in humor or bit of fun or entertaining questions. The the answers were large you like man. No. You know it was a bit disappointing. Yeah it was it a bit painful and so yeah, kind of our policy is now remain that we will hand select and handin invite The people that we want on there because we just we just.

28:48.12
julieewald
That’s brutal.

29:02.11
Jon
That was too painful and also those invite those people who reach out about that are always like maybe except 1 we’ve had probably about 30 of these and all but 1 have been for like here’s a middle aged straight white male Ceo talked to him about all the great things. He’s done like I don’t that’s It’s pretty dull like there’s enough of those out there ready. There’s enough things and you know speaking as ah as a white male myself I just kind of feel like just sitting there and just kind of having giving more of a um platform to somebody who’s already got enough of a platform sometimes feels a bidding especially when they’re not especially entertaining or especially happy to be there. So yeah, we kind of handpicked them based on who we find interesting who we’ve got you know a story to tell effectively and things 1 ah 1 have a chat with.

29:51.76
julieewald
No, that’s absolutely fantastic. Ah, except for that that 1 experience um, otherwise that sounds lovely now it’s a.

29:56.12
Jon
Um, yeah.

30:01.60
julieewald
Yeah, it’s it’s hard so it’s sometimes it’s really hardarcing guests. So like you know my my team and I have looked at people in our network and folks that we really enjoy who put out the kind of content that we we. We’ve really connected with and enjoy talking about. But you know at the same time. Yeah, it’s really, it’s hard because you want to make sure that we’re giving a platform to people who have unique takes and have.

30:18.60
Jon
M.

30:20.75
julieewald
You know, diverse viewpoints and have something exciting to say because yeah, you my um, one of the things you know my my husband’s pointed out and and you know he’s a white guy has been like you just see like video after video of like middle aged white guys saying the exact same thing in almost the exact same way and it’s like we just.

30:35.32
Jon
Yeah.

30:39.60
julieewald
You need something little little fresher.

30:42.55
Jon
Yeah, and you you know? ah you can’t just avoid it. But you can make an effort to have an element of diversity not in just diversity of whether it’s you know the sexuality or skin color. Whatever it is but also diversity of opinion and of a diversity of experience and.

30:56.59
julieewald
Um, yeah.

31:00.43
Jon
You know I’m not that interested in just well-educated person with rich parents successfully starts a company. That’s not an interesting story to me and I’m I’m not kind of saying they shouldn’t have that success but also it’s not for me. It’s about interesting conversations I listen to podcast entrance conversations and I want to have interesting conversations. On our podcast and that is what we kind of we focused on. And yeah, it’s what when when you your your husband’s absolutely right? There are so many of people just saying the same things over and over again in just the same ways and it’s just 2 people looking the same talking to each other agreeing with each other like okay this. I don’t need to be here then this is good for you guys. But I’m gonna I’m gonna shoot off.

31:42.37
julieewald
Yeah, you know and you you touched on something something in there that I think is you know, kind of really important just mentioning this off the cuff with you know, marketing. There’s a lot of folks are talking about this stuff and they’ve had you know all of the privilege in the world or they’ve had certain advantages. And then they’re talking about. Oh you can do it Too. You can be just like me or you can and it’s like ignoring all of the secret sauce. All of the special things and you’re like you just need to follow these 3 easy tips but also you need to be be wellfunded and you need to open to the certain school and you need to know these people and you know.

32:10.10
Jon
Um, yeah.

32:16.47
julieewald
You just need to get lucky and end up running into the right person at the right time at you know south by southwest and you have to have all these things happen but you know we’ll ignore that you just need to follow these 3 easy steps and then money.

32:23.20
Jon
Yeah, ignore all the privilege that’s behind it with you know I know we all have varying degrees of privilege but it is. It’s yeah that certain times someone says to we Kindnna go Paul that wow you you really missed a massive part there in which case you had the money to quit your job and start a business and hire people. That’s. That’s a bit that not many people have and you’re saying is if that’s like the easy step one and it’s yeah, it’s a bit. It’s a bit for shake. It’s also something that for me because I’ve kind of been invited on a few podcasts and not not loads I’m not saying people just bang on my door people more interested in being on the podcast and having me on theirs. But at the same time I’ve turned a few down based on the fact is that I just kind of armss I’ve been like i’ to be just another another of those same faces like just ah, just another english white guy with opinions and so I’ve had to kind of I get kind of really torn about it and I got of put off and. Until kind of until this 1 getting invite to a podcast. Oh that looks like a ah you know a podcast that’s folks on things I can add genuine value to and so it’s doing it whereas you know I didn’t I I never want to be this another person just saying the same thing over and over again that somebody already knows because that’s the thing that you see all over it. Social media and podcast and everything just yeah I’m going to say stuff that everyone the audience already knows and agrees with so that I look better and it’s trying to avoid that where possible.

33:51.63
julieewald
Um, no, it’s it’s yeah that various differing viewpoints and opinions are important. But also if it helps your opinions are fantastic. You can keep keep bringing them. You’re absolutely fantastic. So um.

33:59.79
Jon
Um, thank you.

34:04.97
julieewald
In terms of your podcast. How is this impacted your business and I’m asking because you know obviously if my agency has started a podcast and it’s something we’ve recommended for a lot of other folks and I like it’s benefit. It’s beneficial. It helps how has it helped you.

34:11.96
Jon
Um.

34:17.82
Jon
It’s ah right now I would be back in my job in tech miserable if I didn’t start my podcast and I kind of know that you know not because it as a fact because things can change but at the same time looking back that is the 1 thing that has made the biggest difference is you know.

34:34.29
Jon
If I can trace back I think ninety six ish percent of my income to the podcast either through somebody hearing it or more often. It is people who are guests referring me or hiring me or things are that it’s become it isn’t just kind of. Ah, content tool and a way of broadcasting. It’s also great for networking which is what I can have found out is that you don’t meet the same people. You know there’s a good chance that me and you wouldn’t be talking or know each other right now if it wasn’t for your podcast and so now you kind of you’ve met another interesting person. And that’s kind of the the process that I kind of found is that it really helped me to kind of grow my network as well as understanding so much more and learning from the people you have on hosting a podcast is great because you can ask a question and just listen to so an interesting talk phrases that that is much easier than like this right now. Just the concept panicking bag of my head going. Don’t say something wrong because you’re the one that’s going to talk. You got one. That’s kind of kind of fill more of the time by answering questions and also ah Don be I’ve had that before where if you ask a question I just give like a 3 word answer and you’re like oh no, this is going to be a 6 minute long podcast episode I get very aware of it. And so hosting. It is great. You can just learn people listen hear great stories surprise people. It’s something that not everyone likes about my podcast until afterwards that I don’t tell people in advance. What the questions are or the topics to cover I don’t even really ask them what they want to cover I kind of just research them and then surprise them I give them the room.

36:08.59
Jon
Talk about what they want to talk about but at the same time I do that which is yes some people don’t like it as much and like it’s a bit less um and but but it does kind of have its pros and cons in that you kind of you get some quite surprising moments and some quiet, um, vulnerable. Takes really you get kind of you. You see somebody more you know, ah like like this chat can go different directions and to that you can then see more of a person and so you get to know people learn so much more than you kind of do from like a blog post where if they were writing a blog post about this topic. They’d probably edit it out. Most of the stuff I rambled about today probably would make it to a fine edit of a blog post or an email because I’ll be like well that’s just rambling nons and that this is not good. They won’t care about this whereas I think for me, the good stuff is in the middle. It’s in between it’s those nuances in between the kind of the big points and that’s what you get from the podcast and so ah, yeah, the. Learning and the networking side has just been great and shipping. Yeah it it changed it. It was the the foundation the launching pad the launching pad probably for kind of the whole the whole career for me.

37:19.32
julieewald
I I Love it. So This is another thing where I wish I had like you know a little place where I could highlight this like clients listen to this look how valuable this is but no, it’s really one of the things you said is really true. It’s there’s little bits and pieces in between that maybe would end up on the cutting room floor otherwise that adds so much more color and texture and context. That really allow you to get to the heart of some of these things and why some of these recommendations are being made and why some of these things are important. Um, no, it’s It’s absolutely.. It’s not and again going back to that more that more human connection. Um, you know you don’t end up getting with that you know super Sharp. You know.

37:42.96
Jon
Earth.

37:56.10
julieewald
Brief writing that’s going to get to you know cut to the quick. It’s it’s real.

37:58.76
Jon
Yeah, it’s it’s real and it’s got personality and it’s got things and it’s and also for me, it’s kind of I hate the sales side of things like I like marketing I don’t like sales and obviously there’s the you know talking about allbound as a good way looking at it is that for me.

38:13.51
julieewald
Um.

38:16.90
Jon
I always want people coming to me I never want to be kind of going hey sorry I don’t mean to disturb you I know you’ve just turned to Linkedin and didn’t want a stranger messaging you or in your inbox or whatever it is I get really resistant to that I don’t like it I can you know I I think done? Well, it can be done in a very kind of respectful way. But I think that. So done so often in a way that doesn’t respect. People’s time or their situation and so I kind of I’m resistance to that and actually it was and the book antiscell by Steve Morgan that kind of gave me this inspiration to kind of go I’ll start podcast then because his book talks about all these different ways you can kind of. Meet people and do a different approach to marketing that isn’t or different approach to selling that isn’t just bombarding people and he was actually so he was actually my first client like six seven years ago years ago and he wrote this book so he’s done more me than really I should I care to say he’s been after the podcast. Steve Morgan’s really kind of really kind of pushed me along.

39:16.77
julieewald
No, it’s fantastic I have those people that you’re able to you know I’ve I I have a kind of a list of you know these marketing and sales mentors that you know, um, some of them know that they’ve been influential and others I’m like I’m just to keep taking these little gems. Thank you? oh. Awesome! So We’ve been chatting for a bit and and it’s kind of time to wrap things up but is there anything I Missed is there anything that you’re like hot damn I need to talk about this.

39:43.80
Jon
So I mean the thing really is that I’m kind of put the put sassy’s fuck on on the shelf a bit to focus on some good freelance frontier which I didn’t really know what it was when I first started I kind of got a logo made and went that looks cool and that was kind of it. But it’s. Ah, the moment I’m doing monthly live q and as and the idea is to kind of it’s 4 freelancers to help get better and improve and so every month we’ve got a live q and a with experts talking about a certain topic to basically kind of try and give back and also create. Basically what I needed 2 2 or so years ago. Kind of give me that confidence so like this month we’ve got ah Mel Barfield and sophie cross talking about Linkedin. Um, and and we had the one last month that was about getting started and finding your first clients and yes, that’s kind of the the main kind of other thing outside of my copywriting I’m hosting these so. If a freelancer’s listing and they need and they’re trying to improve and earn more money and you know just kind of moving along. It’s free. It’s live q and a bond a month and they should check that out.

40:48.49
julieewald
Yeah, and you can register for that on eventbrite right.

40:51.53
Jon
Yes, that’s right, it’s the the next event’s already on there and always be 1 for next one. But also you can follow freelance frontier on there and then it’ll always kind of show you there the next one coming up.

41:05.00
julieewald
Awesome! Um I’d love to plug the next one but we’re running a little behind on publishing these So I think ah the next or next next one? Um, so anyway, keep an eye out for for that on eventbrite y’all? Um, lovely.

41:16.35
Jon
Yeah I’ll post about on Twitter is fine.

41:21.71
julieewald
Speaking of that you can find ah John on Twitter at that writer John um, that’s also on Linkedin as well, right? and then for those of you who maybe would would like to do some business with John of is a jamcreevy.com um and if you want to hear sassy as fuck.

41:27.71
Jon
Um, yep.

41:40.42
julieewald
Where can we find that pretty much everywhere everywhere podcasts live.

41:40.74
Jon
Yeah, yeah, Spotify I the Apple just I think everywhere.

41:48.34
julieewald
Perfect, um, anything else. We didn’t cover.

41:51.74
Jon
I Don’t think so I spend a lovely chat.

41:56.62
julieewald
Yeah, we’ve we’ve covered a lot of ground. So again, everyone find John on Twitter at that writer John um, thank you this was this was great. Really? yeah, no thank you for being here. Um, and everyone who is who is who’s listened to this.

42:05.88
Jon
Thank thank you for having me.

42:14.30
julieewald
Thank you for showing up I hope to see you next time here at allbound awesomeness. Thank you so much again. John thank you! Everyone have a good one.